What will John Swinney do next?
Euan McColm wonders in his Scotsman article how long John Swinney and his Ministers will stay silent while people we should be able to trust try to explain away the catastrophic consequences of gender ideology on public bodies. He cites Police Scotland, who has now clarified that a man who rapes a woman is indeed a man, Rape Crisis Scotland who were ‘suddenly’ shocked to find out the sex of counsellors mattered very much to rape survivors, Creative Scotland who hounded gender critical artists they were funded to support, and the former First Minister who was at a loss to explain the transfer of rapist Adam Graham/Isla Bryson to a female prison. When, he asks, will someone in authority come forward and say, loudly and clearly, that enough is enough?
First Minister John Swinney’s “dereliction of duty over this matter continues to cast a cloud over his leadership”, according to Mr McColm, and it is time for him to speak up. Since becoming First Minister on 7th May 2024, Mr Swinney has faced several interview questions on women’s rights to single-sex spaces and we’ve kept a record of what he has had to say, so far.
13 May 2024, Radio Scotland
Interviewer
Do you believe that a transwoman is a woman?
John Swinney
I believe a woman is an adult female born as a woman. And I also accept that transgender women are defined as women.
Interviewer
I just wonder though, what you say to women who’ve been campaigning to protect women’s rights, who believe that a lot of the policies that, to this point, the Scottish Government has been following, threaten the rights and the safety of women and girls.
John Swinney
Well, I want to do nothing that threatens the safety of women and girls, and I will do nothing to threaten the safety of women and girls.
27 June 2024, Radio 4
Interviewer
Just got to get through as many last questions as we can. Single sex spaces then, you’ve expressed confidence that they are being protected already under the Equality Act. How do you convince women listening who think the opposite?
John Swinney
Well, we’ve got to make sure that what is in legislation is turned into a practical reality and that we do have the provisions in the Equality Act 2010 are utilised to ensure that single-sex spaces are used in a way that protects the security and the safety of women and girls. And there is nothing, absolutely nothing, I want to do which jeopardises the security and the safety of women and girls.
28 June 2024, Radio Scotland
(Reported in the Herald: Swinney wants to work ‘constructively’ with Labour on gender)
Interviewer
I want to ask a question that was asked of the two candidates on the TV debate the other night, will you protect women’s rights to single sex spaces from any and all males, regardless of whether they have a gender recognition certificate?
John Swinney
Yes, I would do that. And I think that’s provided for in the Equality Act 2010. But I think it’s really important that the safety and security of women and girls is at the heart of our decision making.
…
Interviewer
Many women might feel that there’s an incompatibility between your first answer saying that you will protect women’s rights with your desire to continue with the Gender Recognition Act.
John Swinney
I think the best thing for me to say is that I am absolutely wholly committed to protecting the safety of women and girls and I give that commitment to women and girls in Scotland today.
01 July 2024, 5 Live
John Swinney
On the Gender Recognition Reform bill, I’ll come to the safe spaces in a moment, if I might, but the gender recognition legislation was passed with support from members of all political parties in the Scottish Parliament, all five political parties, and the UK government decided to intervene on that. The courts looked at that question. And the courts found that the UK Government had the right to stop that legislation. So I believe in the rule of law, so I accept that court judgment. The question then arises is whether the incoming Labour government would change the stance of the United Kingdom Government. I don’t know what the answer to that question is. I think that’s a matter for the incoming Labour government, which I expect to be in place on Friday. So it would be their decision as to what to do in that respect. In relation to safe spaces, I firmly believe, I want to give Gillian the reassurance that I believe that single sex spaces and safe spaces must be protected. There is provision for that within the Equality Act 2010, which is a piece of UK legislation. And I want to make sure that those spaces are protected. And I certainly want to, I know Gillian’s made comments about the position of men and I understand that point, but I’d want to make it clear to women and girls that there is nothing that I would ever do that would jeopardise the safety of women and girls in the approach that we’d take to legislation.
Interviewer
Okay, thank you very much. First Minister, how many genders are there?
John Swinney
Em. Well, I think they’ll be quite a debate about that, Nicky. You know, I think there are em…but certainly from
Interviewer
What do you think?
John Swinney
my point of view I recognise that em eh. Well, I think I…on this this debate, a woman is an adult, eh born as a female and there are also transgender women.
Interviewer
So how many genders are there?
John Swinney
Well, I think I think people will debate and discuss that. From from from my point of view em eh you know there are…there’s the male and the female gender.
02 July 2024, Radio Scotland
Kaye Adams
I know you were questioned on that on radio five live yesterday, you were asked the question, how many genders are there? And there’s been quite a bit of comment as to the hesitation that you had in answering that. I don’t know if you’re kind of clearer on it now.
John Swinney
Well, various people take various views about the number of genders that there are, but for me, you know, Parliament passed the gender recognition legislation, the United Kingdom Government decided to challenge that, to use their powers to challenge that, it was addressed by the courts and the courts viewed that the UK Government is entitled to…
Kaye Adams
So your answer is what?
John Swinney
Well, I gave the answer yesterday that there were two genders, but I recognise there are people that take a different view to that.
Kaye Adams
Right. But in your view, there are two genders?
John Swinney
Yes.
Kaye Adams
Okay. Lynn has asked, will you and your party support single sex services and sports for women and girls?
John Swinney
On the question of single sex spaces, all the provision for that is provided within the equality legislation of 2010. And I want to make sure that the appropriate provisions are put in place to do so.
Kaye Adams
Okay. Some people might not be familiar with that legislation. I mean, it’s a pretty straight question from Lynn, will you and your party support single sex services and sports for women and girls?
John Swinney
Well, the sporting issue, I think is an issue for the sporting bodies. I don’t think government legislates or regulates…
Kaye Adams
So you don’t have a view on that?
John Swinney
I think it’s for the sporting bodies to discuss that. I don’t think I should be lecturing the sporting bodies about their regulation. But in relation to the safety of women and girls, which is the responsibility of government, the legislation is very clear that single sex spaces are permissible to enable the protection of women and girls to be applied and I want to make sure there’s no doubt or dubiety about that question.
Kaye Adams
Permissible. There is dubiety in that word permissible. Permissible or enforceable or mandatory, where are we?
John Swinney
Enforceable.
Kaye Adams
Enforceable?
John Swinney
Enforceable is absolutely…
Kaye Adams
Alright, great.
John Swinney
Forgive me if my language is not absolutely correct on that, but enforceable is certainly my view because that’s the law, it’s the law in the Equality Act.
Kaye Adams
Thank you for that clarity.
02 July 2024, Radio Scotland
(Reported in the Telegraph: Swinney contradicts SNP gender policies to demand ‘enforcement’ of single-sex spaces)
Jane
Good morning, John. Yes, I’m interested really in hearing some definite confirmation of a commitment by you and the SNP to protect women’s rights and protect women’s single sex species. I’m concerned. Listening to what you were saying earlier about the Equality Act, to be honest, I think you’ve been quite disingenuous in claiming that the Equality Act gives protections for single sex spaces, which it does, but unfortunately, that’s being ignored. So how do you explain then, if we have the protections that we already need, how do you explain after a damning employment tribunal judgment around Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, we still have a male running that centre telling women who’ve been raped, that if they’re not willing to accept a male identifying as a female providing their services and support, that they are the ones that need to reframe their trauma? How do you explain a Fife health worker currently taking Fife health board to an employment tribunal after she was forced to use a changing room alongside a male, who was identifying as a female? These are exemptions allowed for within the Equality Act, but they’re not being, they’re not happening, so women are being disadvantaged, their safety, their privacy, their dignity is being put at risk.
Kaye Adams
Okay, Jane, let’s let Mr Swinney respond.
John Swinney
Thanks, Jane. Look, I understand the significance and the seriousness of these issues. And I’ve seen some information on the two cases that you have referred to. My understanding on the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre issue is that they are essentially reviewing their whole handling of that issue to determine whether, you know, just what the appropriate handling of that. I’m less familiar with the Fife health board issue, although I’ve heard some of the details of that. But fundamentally I come back to my point, and I think you actually sort of confirmed that point, Jane, that the legislation does provide for the protection of single sex spaces. But the crucial point is that it has to be applied and enforced, which is the point I confirmed to Kaye in my earlier answer.
Kaye Adams
That was the difference between permissible and enforced, wasn’t it?
John Swinney
Yes, and for the avoidance of doubt, you know, my view is that this is the law so it should be enforced. So I think the protection that Jane is seeking is there, it has to be enforced and applied. And if there are cases where that is not the case, then obviously organisations need to, they need to respond to that and to set out how they’re going to go about doing that, which is what I think is happening in the cases that have been raised.
Kaye Adams
So are you giving Jane a commitment that you believe that that ability to create the single sex space should be enforced?
John Swinney
Yes.
Kaye Adams
There you go Jane.
Jane
Well, that’s all very well, but when those organisations are getting told by the government, through policies and directives from the Scottish Government, that anyone who identifies as a female is a female, it doesn’t really help that enforcing of those single sex spaces. Because if someone’s saying, I’m a woman, and the government is saying to organisations, you must accept that person as a woman, we’ve got self-ID by the back door. And that’s what organisations are working on. So it’s not good enough John, it’s absolutely not good enough.
03 July 2024, LBC
Gina Davidson
[He’s had some difficult questions about women’s rights, trans rights and the Equality Act in recent days – how difficult does he find answering them?]
John Swinney
It is difficult, yes. Because it’s an issue which there’s not an awful lot of common ground. And part of what I want to do as First Minister, and I made this clear when I became First Minister, is I want to use the office of First Minister to try to create common ground, try to bring people together on issues. So what I’m trying to do is to make it as practical and tangible as I possibly can do, to bring people together on issues that are clearly causing a lot of hurt and anguish within our society.
Gina Davidson
And how much blame do you think your government has to take for that, given the way that the Gender Recognition Reform Bill was handled?
John Swinney
Well, I think the whole process, well, the gender recognition bill was supported by members of all five political parties in Parliament. So the government can’t have got everything wrong if people in a highly polarised environment, which I said when I became First Minister, I’ve never seen our politics so polarised as they are today, it’s quite an accomplishment to get five political parties, members of five political parties, to support a piece of controversial legislation. So don’t think the government can be blamed for all of that, but we are where we are. And what I’ve got to try to do is to try to bring people together, to find a way through that, to make some of this discussion a bit easier to be had within our society.
Gina Davidson
[Asked him if his continued backing for the Gender Recognition Reform Bill will hinder his hopes of finding common ground – and if his government is responsible for single sex exemptions being over-ridden by some organisations funded by the Scottish Government.]
John Swinney
Well, that legislation was passed by Parliament as I say with the support of members from five political parties. So it’s a democratic Act, it’s come out of the legislative process of the Scottish Parliament. And I think that’s, I accept the rule of law, I accept that unreservedly, and the courts have said that that law cannot be implemented because the UK Government has exercised its Section 35 power. And I accept that, that’s the legal position. So the question is, how do we proceed through this? And that’s something that I want to take forward with care and with sensitivity because I recognise the absolute necessity of bringing people together.
Gina Davidson
And you said as well, on the subject of law, that the Equality Act, I heard you say this yesterday, is the law and should be abided by, but there’ll be many women, in fact I think you probably heard from some of them, who would tell you that that is not what’s happening, particularly around exemptions with single sex services that that you know, that exemption is allowed to be carved out, is being overridden. And some of them blame the Scottish Government for that.
John Swinney
The Scottish Government doesn’t take, I’m not aware of the Scottish Government taking a decision in that area of policy that would create that problem.
Gina Davidson
I suppose if you have, you know, requirements for things to be transgender inclusive to get government monies for a rape crisis centre, for instance, people would say, well, you’re asking them to make that a mixed-sex service.
John Swinney
Well, I don’t think that’s the inference of that. I don’t think that at all. And it’s for organisations to consider what’s the best way to proceed on those questions, but there’s no obligation that government is placing on that. There are considerations that organisations have got to take into account and they should do so, but they’ve got to be properly responsible for decisions that they arrive at.
Gina Davidson
[Specifically on the NHS Fife case – should the nurse in question have been suspended because she objected to changing alongside a transwoman?]
John Swinney
That’s where, I’m not, I can’t comment on individual cases and obviously it’s one, there’s proceedings that are underway in the tribunal. It would be completely wrong for me to comment on that, but obviously, where a tribunal comes to some conclusions those conclusions have to be reflected upon.
14 September 2024, LBC
John Swinney
The situation at Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre has been the subject of an independent investigation and the conclusions of that have been addressed by the board, and it’s right that these issues should be addressed. In law, the ability to have women-only spaces is absolutely central to provisions of the Equality Act 2010. And, in my view, it’s really important that that position is protected, that it’s implemented effectively in all circumstances where it needs to be implemented, because the safety of women and girls in all of these circumstances must be protected at all times.
30 September 2024, LBC
Gina Davidson
[Tomorrow @TessWhite4NE is leading a debate in Holyrood marking Women & Girls in Sport week, calling for single sex categories to be protected- does he agree?]
John Swinney
I think it is important that the sporting bodies are protecting single sex arrangements within sport. I think it is important that there is fairness for all competitors in that respect, and I would expect the sporting bodies to take those decisions.
Gina Davidson
Okay, but there’s been some criticism of your government in terms of changing the goalposts around single sex services, maybe not just in sport, but in other arenas. And questions raised about whether or not you need to lead from the top on this and you need to be very clear about what you mean when you talk about single sex, be it in sport or other services.
John Swinney
I think the legislation is very clear on this point and the issues in the Equality Act 2010 spell out all of these issues, that’s United Kingdom legislation, it’s not legislation that we control, which spells out the protection of single sex spaces and in that respect. So I think the legislation is clear. It has to be implemented effectively and I would expect public bodies to do that.
Gina Davidson
Why do you think now so many public bodies seem to be confused about what the legislation says.
John Swinney
I think the legislation is crystal clear and it should be followed by public bodies.
In short, Mr Swinney thinks the Government has responsibility for the safety of women and girls but, simultaneously, does not have responsibility for the poor decisions taken by the organisations it funds and which puts their safety at risk – and in the case of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, has actually caused harm to women.
The most courageous comment so far from Mr Swinney is a commitment to protect women’s rights to single-sex spaces from any and all males, regardless of whether they have a gender recognition certificate. Which is quite astounding, given that in a few weeks time his government is intending to spend a considerable amount of taxpayers’ money presenting the opposing view to the UK Supreme Court. Despite having undermined their own legal case on Radio Scotland the Scottish Ministers will claim that men who have a gender recognition certificate do have the right to access all of women’s single-sex spaces, services, jobs and sports.
Perhaps it has momentarily escaped the government’s attention that women care not a jot whether a man has a gender recognition certificate. When a woman is alone with a man, whether it’s for counselling, in a prison cell, receiving intimate care, or facing him in the boxing ring, she has no way of knowing if he has a private piece of paper issued by the state. And it doesn’t matter, all that matters is his male sex.
Mr McColm doesn’t reckon Swinney has the courage to speak up on his party’s dangerously reckless position; we don’t think so either. But if ‘honest’ John has a shred of integrity left then he will withdraw from the Supreme Court case. The clock is ticking…it’s only eight short weeks until the hearing on 26th November.
Update: 28 November 2024
We have to admit, we didn’t see this one coming!
All the references to pregnancy and maternity throughout the Equality Act are made in
relation to, and only to, women. However, AT THE VERY SAME TIME as Ruth Crawford KC was arguing in the UK Supreme Court – on the instructions of the Scottish Ministers – that a “pregnant woman” was capable of being interpreted as a “pregnant man”, the First Minister was saying the opposite to press at Holyrood.
Mr Swinney told a reporter from The Telegraph that there was no such thing as a pregnant man.
Was the Scottish Government just wasting the Supreme Court’s time on this absurdity?
